Earliest source for kesidran in tefillin and mezuzos?

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Does anyone know the earliest source(s) for the law of kesidran in tefillin and mezuzos?

Comments

  1. moshe weinerSeptember 15, 2013 at 1:51 PM

    The Rosh in hilchos tefilin quotes Mechilta parshas bo [tanaic source].

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    1. UnknownSeptember 15, 2013 at 3:41 PM

      Thank you. Is it clear that the Mechilta is referring not just to the physical placement of the letters, words and the parshiot relative to eachother, but especially to the point in time the letters, words and parshiot were written relative to eachother?

      Delete
  2. AnonymousSeptember 15, 2013 at 9:45 PM

    its not so clear from the mechilta, that is why tosfos argues. see the 2nd bi'ur halacha to siman 32

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  3. AnonymousSeptember 15, 2013 at 9:46 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. UnknownSeptember 15, 2013 at 10:01 PM

      Thanks. Was the Rosh the first to explain the mechilta this way- i.e. the letters, words and parshiot must be written in the temporal sequence that they appear in the Torah?

      Delete
    2. UnknownSeptember 15, 2013 at 10:03 PM

      This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. moshe weinerSeptember 16, 2013 at 1:06 AM

      No this law is quoted earlier than the Rosh, in Rambam. But the Rambam didn't mention any source.
      True the Mechilta is not clear, if speaking about seder of the parshiyos in the batim of rosh [or on the klaf in yad] or the seder of the writing.
      The Mechilta doesn't regard mezuza, only tefilin.

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    4. moshe weinerSeptember 16, 2013 at 1:40 AM

      The Rambam writes that the law c'sidran applies to mezuza as well. Rishonim [see Cesef Mishna H. Stam ch 1) quote Yerushalmy Megila as source of Rambam.

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    5. UnknownSeptember 16, 2013 at 6:50 AM

      Thanks. I looked in Rambam hilchos sta"m and I couldn't find where he mentions kesidran as we understand it today. Where do you see it? I only found that he says that the 2 mezuzah parshiot must be in the correct order on the klaf.

      Delete
  4. moshe weinerSeptember 16, 2013 at 6:56 AM

    הל' תפלין פרק א הלכה טז: אבל במזוזה ותפלין אין תולין בהן אפילו אות אחת
    כסף משנה שם: בירושלמי פ"ק דמגילה והטעם משום דהוי שלא כסדרן, ואמרינן במכילתא כו'.

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    1. UnknownSeptember 16, 2013 at 7:48 AM

      Thanks. I didn't catch that. I was only looking for the word "seder/sidur". This teaches that "kesidran" in writing applies within a word or parshah. Where do we learn that it also applies between one parshah and another? - I.e. Shema must be written before Vehaya im shamoa?

      Delete
  5. moshe weinerSeptember 16, 2013 at 7:55 AM

    See Cesef Mishna ibid that doesn't differentiate, between words or parshiyot.
    The simple neaning of the Michilta refers to the 4 parshiyos, while the Yerushalmi mentioned specifies letters or words.

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  6. UnknownSeptember 16, 2013 at 9:42 AM

    Thanks again. The first clear expression of "kesidran" as also applying to the timing of when each parshah was written relative to another parshah - does this first appear in the Rosh or in the Cesef Mishnah?

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  7. YankevSeptember 16, 2013 at 12:06 PM

    The Kesef Mishnah tends to interpret the Rambam in light of other Rishonim. In fact, it is not at all clear that the Rambam himself holds that "kesidran" applies to the sequence of writing each letter. See חדושי מרן רי"ז הלוי. Rav Kapach (in his commentary to Mishneh Torah) agrees with Kesef Mishneh, but (לענ"ד and not that he needs my haskama) the Brisker Rav's analysis is convincing.

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  8. UnknownSeptember 16, 2013 at 12:15 PM

    Thanks. In Rambam hilchos stam 1:16 it says for tefillin and mezuzot if one letter was forgotten then one can't go back and write it but must be gonez it. If there was a tikun then why must he be gonez?

    Which parts of the Kesef Mishneh does Rav Kapach agree with?

    What does the Brisker Rav conclude?

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  9. UnknownSeptember 16, 2013 at 2:34 PM

    Yankev,
    After rereading the Rambam hilchos stam, especially the halacha I cited before (1:16), I agree with you now that it is not at all clear that the Rambam holds of this at all. 1:16 is speaking about "hanging" the letters and not about erasing and correcting. Thanks.

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  10. UnknownSeptember 17, 2013 at 11:15 AM

    I'm beginning to suspect that there is no clear source older than the Rosh for sh'lo kesidran exactly as we hold today that every letter must be written in sequence, not just within a parshah but also between parshiot.

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