Designated Tinok and Size of NUN SOFIT lechatchila BORO PARK style
Alfa Beisa -nun pshuta shall be like zayin but longer,do not shorten less than 4 kulmus including head
Alfa Baisa 2 nun pshuta shall be like zayin however length shall be 4 kulmus including head so it can be bent into nun kfufa
Darkei Moshe siman 36 quotes Boruch Sheamar "nun pshuta shall be 4 kulmus including rosh.
Mikdash Me'at" os nun: (4)quotes Darkei Moshe and stresses 3 kulmus for regel
Mikdash Me'at" os nun: (5)quotes Darkei Moshe in name of Mordchai IF NUN SOFIT WAS WRITTEN LESS THAN ABOVE SHIUR IT IS STILL KOSHER ,if in doubt then show to tinok
Ksov Lechaim-Shmulevitzer http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32842&st=&pgnum=24
has no mekor but writes it should have four and a half kulmusim (now remember he is not a posek actually according to many he misquotes the boruch sheomar many times.)
Rabbi Silberger pictures nun sofit with 3 and a half kulmusim and quotes above ksov lechaim and meir eini sofrim http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40429&st=&pgnum=47&hilite= that boruch sheamar os kuf and darkei moshe disagree.-Mikdash me'at in letter kuf however explains baruch sheamar that he agrees to darkei moshe that 3 kulmus is the shiur and a bit less is also kosher and as regel of kuf 3.5 kulmus including head is called "as nun sofit".
(I don't really have a complaint to Rabbi Silibiger since a longer nun sofit is fine and actually should be longer next to an ayin or peh)
NOW HERE IS A QUESTION TO ELI'S DESIGNATING A GROOMED TINOK(which I assume a new tinok has to be groomed every year)
1)When teaching nun sofit how long is the regel on the picture that you teach-if it is longer then 3 kulmusim then your tinok would not be acceptable.
one more point when the braysa warns not to write zanin nunin to which nun does the braysa refer
in my opinion the braysa is refering to less then 3 kulmus (same as yudin vavin -for sure the braysa does not have to warn us not to misspell a word)
Alfa Baisa 2 nun pshuta shall be like zayin however length shall be 4 kulmus including head so it can be bent into nun kfufa
Darkei Moshe siman 36 quotes Boruch Sheamar "nun pshuta shall be 4 kulmus including rosh.
Mikdash Me'at" os nun: (4)quotes Darkei Moshe and stresses 3 kulmus for regel
Mikdash Me'at" os nun: (5)quotes Darkei Moshe in name of Mordchai IF NUN SOFIT WAS WRITTEN LESS THAN ABOVE SHIUR IT IS STILL KOSHER ,if in doubt then show to tinok
Ksov Lechaim-Shmulevitzer http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32842&st=&pgnum=24
has no mekor but writes it should have four and a half kulmusim (now remember he is not a posek actually according to many he misquotes the boruch sheomar many times.)
Rabbi Silberger pictures nun sofit with 3 and a half kulmusim and quotes above ksov lechaim and meir eini sofrim http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40429&st=&pgnum=47&hilite= that boruch sheamar os kuf and darkei moshe disagree.-Mikdash me'at in letter kuf however explains baruch sheamar that he agrees to darkei moshe that 3 kulmus is the shiur and a bit less is also kosher and as regel of kuf 3.5 kulmus including head is called "as nun sofit".
(I don't really have a complaint to Rabbi Silibiger since a longer nun sofit is fine and actually should be longer next to an ayin or peh)
NOW HERE IS A QUESTION TO ELI'S DESIGNATING A GROOMED TINOK(which I assume a new tinok has to be groomed every year)
1)When teaching nun sofit how long is the regel on the picture that you teach-if it is longer then 3 kulmusim then your tinok would not be acceptable.
one more point when the braysa warns not to write zanin nunin to which nun does the braysa refer
in my opinion the braysa is refering to less then 3 kulmus (same as yudin vavin -for sure the braysa does not have to warn us not to misspell a word)
The standard most common accepted length is a regel of 3 kulmusim (4 kulmusim incl Rosh)
ReplyDeleteBut remember that the dimensions given by the rishonim (and the ones we usually speak about) are the measurements for a perfect ketiva gasa meruba'at.
However in reality the context of the ktav makes just as much difference. That's why even when using a tinok you show them a few letters from the same ktav before asking them the actual shaila.
A zayin can have a regel of 5 kulmusim and be kosher if it's in the right context. So what matters for the tinok is both dimension and context. I'm sure you're aware of the halachic discussion around the word פן...?
What triggered me to write this post was eli's logical commentwhere he requested us to view a perfect nun sofit and a perfect zayin-then he requested we look at the zayin in question(which lost a bit of its legth by being re scanned many times).I followed Eli's directions and I came to the conclusion that a regel zayin with 2.5 kulmus is much closer to a ayin than to a nun. Mathematically this is correct as well since we are building our decision that a regel nun sofit is 3.5 and a zayin is 2 therefore 2.5 is closer to zayin.
ReplyDeleteNOT ONLY CANT WE USE TINOK WE CANNOT USE OUR JUDGEMENT TO DECIDE IF ITS A SHAILA, SINCE WE ARE ALSO INFLUENCED BY A MISCONCEPTION !!!! (and I blame the ksov lechaim for this misconception)
The discussion about a nun sofit next to a pay is the lomdiis "althogh the zayin is kosher the word is posul-therefore there is no chok tochos or shelo kesidron in correcting)
Yes it is very problematic, I recently had a mezuza to check, that I couldn't kasher, so it is now in my draw for reference,
ReplyDeleteIt's the zayin of mezuzos
here;
http://sofrus.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2013-11-14-11.08.50-1024x577.jpg
Yosef Chaim,
ReplyDeleteI would not passel that zayin so fast. I would show other zayins and nuns to a tinok, and then ask him about this [covering the end of the word].
"According to many..." I think that's a davar pashut given the facts.
ReplyDelete