negiya vov nun
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Rabbi Eli Gutnick
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How about the Bais of Uleovdo?
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The forum is back online...for reference and research purposes.
Dear Readers and Members, The forum has been down for over 6 months because the domain name (www.stamforum.com) lapsed and it is no longer available to re purchase. Although this forum is now defunct (it has morphed into several whatsapp groups), I have had many requests to put it back online because it contains so much information (over 1,800 posts and thousands of comments in the discussions, on a wide range of topics related to STa"M). I have therefore put the forum back online at blogger, so the address is www.stamforum.blogspot.com. The forum lasted for a decade...not a bad effort! It was pretty popular back in the days before whatsapp and managed to receive over a million hits in it's short life. It was one of the only organised forums in the STa"M world and definitely the largest in it's heyday. I would like to thank all those who cobtributed over the years, particularly the early members who helped build it up. Thanking you all, Eli
Ink, Kosher vs. non-Kosher
We all know that there is no ancient source that requires ink to be מן המותר בפיך . Possibly, as said here before, because in the olden days ink was always מן המותר בפיך and the question was never raised. It was probably self-evident. Nowadays, no decent Rav will approve an ink which is not מן המותר בפיך . Who was the first one to raise this question? Was it raised because of animal ingredients or because of non-kosher wine?
Pasul
ReplyDeleteYou mean not fixable?
DeleteMy thoughts were if the heads are touching it would definitely be a shinuy tzurah and a kosher tof.
But tagin touching like that? Definitely not a tof. More like a ches possibly? Not really because of the nun.
I fixed it.
To be sure I took a photo (posted) prior to fixing. I emailed a Rov who said it was muttar to fix.
This is a serious shaila and I would be noteh lifsol without hearing otherwise from Rav Friedlander or another posek with equally broad STaM shoulders. (Rav MS Klein, Rav Shamai...)
ReplyDeleteKesiva Tama says if one wrote a Ches like this it's pasul b/c it looks like a Sav and says it's a kol sheken from a Ches in which both raglayim have a moshav going outwards which the Keses and Mikdash Me'at pasul. He says if one wrote a Sav like this it would be a shailas chacham.
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DeleteSfeikos Hasofer pasels such a Ches as well b/c it looks like a Sav. However, Rav YM Stern holds that such a Ches is kosher (which is a chiddush) so it seems based on the above that "mima nafshaf", our case is either a chashash of a Sav or can be considered a kosher Ches.
DeleteYerios Shlomo brings down that such a Ches is pasul (not because it;s a kosher Sav as it's enough to be a shiniu tzura) and brings Shevet Halevi, he should have a refua shleima! who leaves as a tzarich iyun. The Yerios Shlomo does however say that a tinok should be asked when a Vav./Zayin touch a Nun via the tagin, as in the case under discussion.
While there is a tzad to ask a tinok, considering that some seem to consider it a kosher Sav or Ches, a shailas chacham should be asked as R' Eli did. I hope to ask Rav Friedlander for my own edification.
From what I see, I agree with Eli, and the above is certainly fixable. It is not a Kosher TAV, and neither a Kosher CHET.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it should be first shown to a Tinok. Once the Tinok reads "VAV" and "NUN" there should be no reason to prohibit separating the tagin.
The fact that it is not a Kosher different letter does not mean that this one has a Tzuras haOs. Without Tzuras haOs, any repair is Shelo Kesidran.
DeleteAgreed, that is precisely the case. Therefore, the role of the Tinok is to determine if it has Tzurat HaOt. If the Tinok reads properly, then we can carry on with separating the tagin.
Delete@Aharon:
ReplyDeleteSo why would you not leave it up to a tinok?
Some poskim consider this a kosher ches. The kesiva Tama says if one wrote a Sav this way it's a shailas Chacham (some achronim machshir as a Sav). Hence, let's leave the determination as to whether its a psul or a shailas tinok to the chacham.
DeleteFrankly I'm surprised R' Eli got a psak to separate without at least asking a tinok. I'm not at all surprised that Avi H's tinok read it as a Sav. (Even if we'd get a psak to ask a tinok and he read it correctly I question if it would be lechatchila. I hope to get clarity on all this next week.
I have had such a shayla and the tinok read it as a tav.
ReplyDeleteI have had such a shayla and the tinok read it as a tav.
ReplyDelete