Dear Readers and Members, The forum has been down for over 6 months because the domain name (www.stamforum.com) lapsed and it is no longer available to re purchase. Although this forum is now defunct (it has morphed into several whatsapp groups), I have had many requests to put it back online because it contains so much information (over 1,800 posts and thousands of comments in the discussions, on a wide range of topics related to STa"M). I have therefore put the forum back online at blogger, so the address is www.stamforum.blogspot.com. The forum lasted for a decade...not a bad effort! It was pretty popular back in the days before whatsapp and managed to receive over a million hits in it's short life. It was one of the only organised forums in the STa"M world and definitely the largest in it's heyday. I would like to thank all those who cobtributed over the years, particularly the early members who helped build it up. Thanking you all, Eli
R' Eli,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why there is a difference between a Sfardi or an Ashkenazi. Ashkenazim too are Noheg like the Ramba"m (Unless you follow "והאידנא נהגו כולם פתוחות"). So, if the space is spread between the end of shma AND the beginning of vehaha, then according to Ta"z you're Yotze both according to Ramb"m and Ro"sh.
If there is only a space by Vehayah it follows the Ramab"m which, as I said is the final ruling for Ashkenazim as well, and as long as its 9 osios ketanos - at least - it is Kosher.
The Sephardim are machmir that a tight Taz (mishna brurah) is possul.
DeleteYes, R' Eli.
DeleteBut that's only because the space is divided. If, however, the space is completely at the beginning of vehaya - it's for sure Kosher.
And to clarify: I never meant to say that Sfardim accept the Ta"z opinion. As a matter of fact - many don't including Chaba"d.
I simply meant to say that everyone follows the Rambams opinion. According to Ta"z his idea of dividing the space costs the Rambams opinion as well as the Rosh opinion. Of course there are those who hold that it's actually not kosher according to anyone.
I hear you.
DeleteBTW the Sefardim are even stricter than Chabad. Reb Zalman Shimon as well as many Chabad poskim used to say that you cannot outright passel even tight Taz (Mishnah Brurah). But the Sephardi poskim passel it outright.
I've heard that before. I'm not familiar with the pathways of "hachra-ah" in Halacha, but the A'R is pretty clear about how he felt about it. And that was without the Pri Megadims addition of the space totaling 9 small letters (as opposed to big ones...)!!!
DeleteHi Eli,
ReplyDeleteThe preferred way for Sepharadim to write the last Perasha as Setuma is exactly as you describe... The paragraph of shema goes until the end of the last line. Then at the beginning of Vehaya Im Shamoa' the sofer should leave more than 9 otiyot ketanot but less than 9 otiyot gedolot. As Y.Y. writes above, it's Kasher lechatechilah for Sepharadim. However, unlike what Y.Y. writes above, the opinion of the TAZ is passul for Sepharadim.
I always thought that for a proper sephardi Rambam, with shema going until the end of the line, it is preferable that VI"S has a space of at least 9 large letters. You're saying it's lechatchillah supposed to be done with less than 9??
DeleteYou are correct, it's supposed to be more than 9 large letters. I should add that according to some shitos it doesn't matter how much space is left at the end of Shma, and of course you have Chabad and others who prefer it that way. See also R' Moshe Sternbuch's compromise to leave 9 small letters exactly at the end of Shma and 9 large letters at the beginning of Vehaya Im Shamoa.
DeleteShalom R. Yankev,
DeleteLike you mention, there are many shitot and Ashkenazim are able to rely on them. However, the subject here is the Shita of the Sepharadim. Leaving more than 9 large letters open at the end of Shema' would definitely invalidate the parashiot for Sepharadim. Likewise, R. Sternbuch's "compromise" which is a variation of the Turei Zahav will also be passul for Sepharadim, as the maximum space left at the end of Shema' must be less than 9 Otiot Ketanot.
I will post an excerpt from the Sefer Halakha Berurah by R. David Yosef in order to clarify the above matter in a separate post.
Sorry, I miss-read the Halakha Berurah. The Shiur for a proper Sephardi Rambam is exactly as both of you state, and NOT like I mentioned above. The Shema should go to the end of the line, and at least 9 large letters should be left open at the beginning of VeHaya Im Shamoa'. Please see my next post for the Halakha Berurah.
DeleteR' Sternbuch is not a variation of Taz. It is diametrically opposed to the Taz because he has a full "Rambam" space at the beginning of Vehaya Im Shamoa as well.
DeleteHi R' Yankev,
DeleteYes, R. Moshe Sternbuch also follows the straight Rambam for the opening space of VeHaya Im Shamoa. The problem for Sepharadim is that R. Sternbuch adopts yet a third approach – "a compromise within a compromise" – to leave the third paragraph of the Shema with exactly enough space for nine vavs [i.e. small letters] till the end of the line.
As mentioned above, Sepharadim require that the end line of Shema be preferably closed to the end or remain with a shiur of less than 9 small letters.
But according to Sfardim as well, 9 osiyos ketanos, though not ideal, is acceptable.
ReplyDeleteCan it be sold b'geder mehudar? I think not
DeleteI don't know what exactly constitutes "Mehudar". I know that it is Kosher B'dieved.
DeleteThe question is: does that mean that one should not wear the tfillin lechatchila? Or after the fact that it was done that way - they can be worn lechatchilla as well.
By the way, the Parshios which have less than 9 osiyos gedolos, do they usually have SOME space at the end of Shma?
I am not a posek, but from my assumption would be that the tefillin, already written, would be kosher lechatchillah l'brochah but are not kosher lechatchillah l'eksivah. I'm thinking they would certainly not halachically mehudar. I'm going to be in touch with a Sephardic posek and post his response
ReplyDeleteJust received this quick response:
ReplyDeleteג אשר מהודר לכל השיטות
תשע יודים כשר לא מהודר
מודדים לפי אות הלכתית לא אות שהאריכו
According to the Sefardim my Rebbi taught me to try to be makpid to have less than 7mm total at end of Shema and as usually in average size pair of Teffilin an OS Ketana shel Yud would not be smaller than 0.8mm 0.8x9=7.2
ReplyDeleteBy Vehaya we pull it the other way 27 Yudim + 2 for space between Ashers and + 1 for space between letters totaling at least 30 Osios Ketanos which again in average size Ketav would not be more than 1.1mm which would equal 33mm Total 27+2+1=30 30x1.1= 33mm
We usually measure with a caliper to be exact.
Many Acharonim require taking the extra spaces between words and letters into account some may try to push the bar on that.
(Average size Kesav that I am refer to above is what is sort of the standard size in the part of Flatbush that I live, Parshios for the 32/33/34 size Batim, obviously Chabad or Pitzponim size needs to measured completely differently)